tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post3847161902574755403..comments2024-03-28T22:33:29.066-04:00Comments on The Philosopher's Stone: COOKERY AND QUACKERY AND ALL SORTS OF KNICK-KNACKERYRobert Paul Wolffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11970360952872431856noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-44819482849523742132014-05-03T06:06:47.389-04:002014-05-03T06:06:47.389-04:00I rather suspect the ancient Athenians did not hav...I rather suspect the ancient Athenians did not have any secret techniques for making the unbuffed look buffed. He was just riffing in a brilliant way as a send-up of Gorgias and the rhetoricians. Sorry about that.<br /><br />I hvae a dim memory of having read the I F Stone many many years ago, but I do not recall a word of it, so maybe I should look at it again.Robert Paul Wolffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970360952872431856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-77713918173427196572014-05-02T22:16:50.297-04:002014-05-02T22:16:50.297-04:00Fake tans I get, make-up I get, but it is hard to ...Fake tans I get, make-up I get, but it is hard to see how either of these could make a slob look like an athlete, especially if the slob in question was as lightly clad as the Greeks tended to be, especially in summer. <br /><br />It may be, of course, that Plato is exaggerating the effectiveness of the beautician's ministrations for rhetorical effect. The contrast he is trying to make is between those with a genuine techne who can do you some real good and those with a 'knack' who only seem to do so. He wants the trainer as an example from the first class so he needs somebody to contrast him with and picks on the beautician even though actual beauticians might not have been much cop at making non-athletes look like athletes. <br /><br />But I can't help wondering whether there was a specific set of techniques which could somehow make somebody look buffed even if they were not. What could they have been? <br /><br /> If there are any classicists among the readers perhaps they could enlighten us? My colleagues at Otago have nothing to offer but the fake tans. <br /><br />On a related topic raised by Matt. I haven't been able to find much scholarly stuff on the Thirty and Thrasybullus's counter-coup. Is this because there isn't much evidence to go on apart from what Xenophon and Aristotle have to say about the episode? <br /><br />I presume Professor Wolff has read I.F Stone's 'The Trial of Socrates'. If not he has a treat in store.Charles Pigdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01131765562671298571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-84660644618742574522014-05-02T15:18:43.860-04:002014-05-02T15:18:43.860-04:00Oh boy, I REALLY am not going to choose sides in t...Oh boy, I REALLY am not going to choose sides in this argument! I will be content if I manage to get right what Plato was claiming. I am absolutely not any kind of expert on ancient Athenian affairs. Your general point about philosophers is of course spot on. Since I present Plato in my class as deeply conservative, and a foe of democracy, I am quite happy to allow that he was dead wrong on the facts.<br /><br />But he sure could write pretty!Robert Paul Wolffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970360952872431856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-68792804132567725592014-05-02T13:31:29.229-04:002014-05-02T13:31:29.229-04:00remember that at least a part of Plato's point...<i>remember that at least a part of Plato's point is that faux political leaders like Pericles fooled Athens into thinking it was in great spiritual shape when in fact it was being set up for the disaster of the Peloponnesian War.</i><br /><br />Oh, this is very unfair to Pericles, who actually gave very good advice to Athens in the Peloponnesian war- even Thucydides, who was no natural ally of Pericles, came to believe that if the Athenians had stuck with his advice, he would have won. The band that Plato hung out with, of course, the would-be and actual tyrants, lead Athens into disaster at the end of the war. I really don't think there's a better example of how you can't trust a philosopher for actual good advice on politics than Plato. <br /><br />(As for ancient beauty advice, there is some real, and frankly terrifying, advice in Ovid's writings, often collected with his love poems. It is a few hundred years later, but might still reflect similar practices.) Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446428606119200980noreply@blogger.com