tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post332924677862667424..comments2024-03-28T12:50:25.792-04:00Comments on The Philosopher's Stone: HOME AGAINRobert Paul Wolffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11970360952872431856noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-87352719109933908282013-07-07T12:52:31.477-04:002013-07-07T12:52:31.477-04:00FWS,
Wolff’s recent post addresses a lot of what I...FWS,<br />Wolff’s recent post addresses a lot of what I would have said in my response, i.e., capitalism necessarily rest on exploitation, and I would add, alienation and environmental destruction. This is not Loyd Blankfein’s fault, nor Greenspan’s fault, albeit both are jackasses. If we fired them, or replaced them with more “ethical” entrepreneurs, capitalism would keep on alienation, exploitation, and polluting. So the trick to ending the three moral crimes just stated to eliminate capitalism wholesale, even if in the short term momentary imprisonment of people like Blankfein and/or Greenspan would feel good.<br /><br />Marx and most Marxist recognize that capitalism is a contradictory system. We all in a sense have to face contradictions between who we are as people, who we want to be, and the world (or mode of production) we live in. Yes it’s true capitalist could take the moral high ground, but again, that doesn’t address a systemic problem, and it also puts more responsibility on their shoulders then they deserve, no matter how much they suck.<br /><br />But it’s also the case that many people don’t know what they are doing when they enter the workforce, regardless of their class position. They just think they need a paycheck, and to provide for themselves and their family. But there’s no contradiction here. Same may know what they are doing is wrong, yet aren’t responsible for the totality of wrongs in the system, nor the system itself, and others may be clueless that what they are doing is reproducing a vile system. In either case, let’s put our energies into eradicating the system, and not the individuals.<br />Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08250295324149056708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-41328582479803412792013-07-06T13:31:06.195-04:002013-07-06T13:31:06.195-04:00Sorry, but I cannot resist a quick remark for Chri...Sorry, but I cannot resist a quick remark for Chris: Do the businessmen who RPW meets actually understand capitalism? Do they realize it is not necessary or inevitable? And if they don't know that, in what sense do they know what they are doing?formerly a wage slavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16064562730082906589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-8555442129485278462013-07-06T13:07:37.358-04:002013-07-06T13:07:37.358-04:00Well, Chris, the thing is as much as I've lear...Well, Chris, the thing is as much as I've learned from RD Wolff, and I accept your summary--I am not convinced that this makes sense. Especially, I find it bizarre (to say the least) to say: "I know it's morally wrong, but I've got to continue my life..." (I think that's what you imagine businessmen to be saying.) I am sure that RPW has something to say about this, but I'm no scholar of his thoughts.<br /><br />However, I don't think RD Wolff has actually thought in detail about the area I was calling individual psychology---hasn't worked out a detailed account--- and I have never heard a convincing account from anyone. When RPW says they are just bigots, or whatever, he is merely pointing in the right direction.<br /><br />I'm not Kantian, but the claim that people simply "must" (you said "have to") reproduce themselves is also bizarre.<br /><br />Roughly, my only new thought here is that we are talking about a lack of imagination, or even cowardice.<br /><br />That's not adequate either, but I find your summary of RDW accurate as a summary, but a total non-starter as any kind of solution or explanation or theory to deal with the problems here.<br /><br />I know an answer from the history of philosophy which is mostly thought a non-starter: Socrates' claim that wrong-doers are always ignorant.<br /><br />Obviously you just denied that when you said the businessmen know what they are doing. And equally obviously, if Socrates actually had any sort of interesting thought, then there's something going on here with the word 'knowledge', like maybe he has a different theory than we do<br /><br />But, to be honest, I am very much inclined to think that most of us, most of the time, simply don't know what we are doing. I know that's paradoxical, but when I hear RPW talking about how powerful ideology is, and how hard it was for Marx to fight for a place where he could see clearly, I think that my thought might not be completely wrong.<br /><br />And, just as a quick prod in the direction of my Socratic claim: I think that anyone who tells a story as much depends upon our real ignorance as anything else. I mean once we start to act, we don't know what's going to happen. We are always suprised whether the consequences are good or bad. When we chose a good thing, the consequences overwhelm us with happiness. When we choose a bad thing, the consequences equally overwhelm us. But in both cases, we didn't fully know the outcomes in advance. And it's not just modesty to feel that the goodness of a good outcome was in some way luck.<br /><br />But I know that I haven't got the right to say QED.<br /><br />And here's a final provocation: I suppose that there could be a novel written about how people experience their lives within the unjust social system that exists today--a big novel. Sometimes I think of it as the equivalent of Alfred Doeblin's novels about the failed German revolution.....(And sorry for saying the obvious: RDWolff's brief, honest remarks about the businessmen he has met does not fit that description.) Another way to put it: There might be (but so far as I know is not) a book equivalent to "Capital" but treating psychology and emotion, perhaps in the style of a novel.....formerly a wage slavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16064562730082906589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-72971901777548526682013-07-05T15:27:48.135-04:002013-07-05T15:27:48.135-04:00Exactly so. If we can mount a steady resistance t...Exactly so. If we can mount a steady resistance to this revanchism, I think we can beat them back. Time is against them on all ther cultural issues, but alas not against them on the econoimic front, where they seem to have successfuly returned to The Gilded Age.Robert Paul Wolffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970360952872431856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-57500485727739573962013-07-05T12:47:58.170-04:002013-07-05T12:47:58.170-04:00What you reflected upon during your fligth is livi...What you reflected upon during your fligth is living in a time of an Ultra-Reactionary push back on all fronts against the gains made by the Working Classes, Minorities and Women.<br /><br />This is the Fight Back of the Patriarchy so invested in maintaining it's power and privilege.<br /><br />And yes they feel now is their time to let loose with all the hateful bigotry which they've bottled up.Grung_e_Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01894879088472559055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-3291869583388912882013-07-05T10:15:41.210-04:002013-07-05T10:15:41.210-04:00RDW acknowledges that many of the CEOs and wall-st...RDW acknowledges that many of the CEOs and wall-streeters he talks to are fully aware that in the long term their practices are dangerous, and harmful. And he claims that they know this and many feel awful about it. But they have to pay the mortgage too, hence he doesn't think individual punishment is ideal, when these people recognize that what they are doing is morally wrong, but practically they have to do it to reproduce themselves and their family everyday.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08250295324149056708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-59675703534241390892013-07-04T19:14:42.301-04:002013-07-04T19:14:42.301-04:00I feel something similar when I hear Richard D. Wo...I feel something similar when I hear Richard D. Wolff explain that there is a "system" and that punishing individual capitalists or bankers would be pointless. It's not because I want retribution; I don't. Rather, it seems to me that Wolff is refusing to enter a legitimate domain of individual psychology, where something specific is going on.<br />Put differently, an individual may feel he simply must worry about profits, but, I cannot believe that he is, at the same time, completely ignorant of the damage caused by business as usual. Not so very long ago there was an article in the New York Times in which the late Steve Jobs was saying that the factories in China were not so bad, and even gushing with phrases along the lines of "gee" or "gosh" (I have forgotten exactly what he said.)--a sure sign, IMHO, that something less than fully honest is being said....(along the lines of: gee, but they are n i c e factories; they even have swimming pools.) ---Could anyone seriously believe that? Accept it as an excuse? <br />I've no solution and no answer, but I am dissatisfied with appeals to "the system" as the universal explanation. <br />What's more, were someone,(speaking now very much contrary to fact) to engage the likes of Steve Jobs in a Socratic conversation, I've no doubt that that Jobs or any other similar Capitalist hero would prove to be incoherent and confused every bit as much as any interlocutor in a Platonic dialogue. But, it's a feature of our socieities that such a thing will never happen.....<br /><br />PS Here's the quote: "“I mean, you go to this place, and, it’s a factory, but, my gosh, I mean, they’ve got restaurants and movie theaters and hospitals and swimming pools, and I mean, for a factory, it’s a pretty nice factory.” And the link: <br /> <br />http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0formerly a wage slavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16064562730082906589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5687347459208158501.post-56108797719555264542013-07-03T19:37:55.578-04:002013-07-03T19:37:55.578-04:00Yes, well, your journey home probably spared you i...Yes, well, your journey home probably spared you immediate knowledge of our (NC) legislature's latest depravity. Suffice it say we went to lend to our bodies in protest. (Monday, I lent my bread and such to feed the released detainees from Moral Monday-- caterer to revolution.) BUT, I find myself, like you, thinking more about the allocation of meanness, stupidity and ignorance within and among the Repugnicans. With Art Pope, not so much stupidity but a lot of viciousness. With some of the more brain-dead Rep. legislators (but I repeat myself, as MT better quipped) just average meaness but a thick layer of stupid. But, so what. The point is to beat them not shame them. They have no shame. The good news is that (via Facebook!) hundreds of people were mobilized overnight to show up today. <br />And,BTW, welcome back to soddenness. Records have been set.<br />David Auerbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15612242467208247588noreply@blogger.com