This is not very scholarly but my wife and I just returned from visit to Nuremberg and the Nazi war trials museum there. There are too many parallels in the evidence: Hitlers narcissism, Nationalism, white supremacist views, megalomania, love of massive ralleys to feed ego and solidify base support. Scapegoating minority to blame economic woes and gain power. Special Deportation force. opposition to free press. Divisive Hate speech. Centralizing power with executive orders and cabinet role re-definitions and selections. General population offered weak resistance.
Thank you. That is very helpful. I am especially interested in the early years, well before the death camps and such. What frightens me is how much this is starting to look like that.
I don't see the analogy. Trump is a vile human being and a bad president, but what's happening in the U.S. today has little to do with Germany in 1933.
I'm willing to bet money that Trump will be defeated in next year's presidential election and after some whining on his part about electoral fraud and maybe demanding a pardon for his crimes from the new administration, he will leave the presidency without a shot being fired and still less without the necessity of a huge world war to defeat him.
To be sure, the Nazis are a terrible reminder of just how a society can so quickly turn to barbarism. But it seems to me it's necessary to remind ourselves of the very significant differences between German circumstances in the 1920 and 1930s--I'm thinking of their political history, both domestic and international, of their economic circumstances, etc.--and the US today. I can't imagine that cherry picking from Germany's past can tell us very much about Germany then or about the US today.
If Trump wins, you'll have another 4 years of disastrous government.
How disastrous it is depends on the outcomes of next year's congressional elections of course. The fact that we can even speculate on how the congressional elections will turn out indicates that we're not in a Nazi Germany type scenario. You can check out when the opposition was banned from the Reichstag, but I'm fairly sure that over two and a half years after Hitler took power, there were no opposition parties left in Germany. There were SS men ruling the streets (the SA had already been purged, I believe) with total support of the government. I doubt that Hitler would have made a speech like the one Trump made the other day condemning white supremacy: Trump's speech probably was sheer hypocrisy, but the fact that he made it is telling. The media still functions and much of the mainstream media is anti-Trump, while in Germany in 1935 I doubt that any anti-Hitler media still functioned. The day when Trump's SS troops march into the New York Times, beat a few journalists to death and throw the rest of them in jail I'll start to believe in your analogy.
Why all this focus on Trump? It's the modern Republican party itself that's at issue. Who, really, couldn't see that such as Trump would become the very flower of its latencies?
IANASOTENP*, but the request reminds me of Klaus Theweleit's Male Fantasies. It's a dense quasi-psychoanalysis and '70s-style cultural criticism, more so than history, but the eminently legible Barbara Ehrenreich wrote the foreword to the 1985 translation of the 1977 publication. Therein I see a reference to "Robert Waite['s]classical history of the Freikorps," which is, I assume, Vanguard of Nazism: The Free Corps Movement in Post-War Germany, 1918-1923 (Harvard UP, 1952).
Here's a taste: https://monoskop.org/images/5/54/Theweleit_Klaus_Male_Fantasies_Vol_1_Women_Floods_Bodies_History.pdf
True, Trump is not about to institute a thousand year Reich, but he does damage in other ways, perhaps worse, that's open to debate. If it happens in America it will just by the fact our history and society differs, authoritarianism will look different. Trump is a better tweeter than Hitler and never served in the military and is more balanced but less a genius
See books by James Q. Whitman... Hitler's American Model and Carroll P. "Pete" Kakel III...The American West and the German East: A comparative and Interpretive Perspective.
While we may debate about the causes of Nazism or its similarities to today, no one can dispute how rapidly things went from bad to worse in Germany and the rest of the world.
The beginnings of the Hitlerjugend were established in the late 20's — just as the Tea Party set the stage for Trump more than a dozen years ago. Until the early 30's the Nazi party grew until, in 1932, its support suddenly doubled from about 18.3% to 37.4% of the vote. This brought Hitler to power and in 1933 he became Kanzler. That same year Dachau was constructed, although it was originally used for political dissidents.
1933 was a particularly ominous year. As Kanzler Hitler declared that German foreign policy demanded the expansion of its territory. Germany First. The Reichstag fire and the "Enabling Act" consolidated Hitler's power and soon Congress (sorry, I meant the Reichstag) ceased to have any real political power. Political parties other than the Nazi party were banned, trade unions were banned, and the first book burnings occurred that year. Echoing themes we see today, Germany withdrew from the League of Nations.
Within short order Austrian criminals were pardoned en-masse, the military was enlarged, and by 1935 the first Race Laws were on the books. In 1938 mobs organized by the Nazis carried out Kristallnacht and German Jews were actually charged with the offense.
Despite the human rights abuses that had been occurring for over a decade (1929-1939), it was only when Germany invaded Poland that Britain and France declared war on Germany. In 1940 Denmark and Norway were occupied by Nazi Germany, followed by the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France. Germany developed plans for blitz bombing Britain. In 1941 Yugoslavia and Greece were occupied. Germany advanced on Stalingrad. Nazi Einsatzgruppen were already coordinating the wholesale slaughter of Jews in towns and cities where no concentration camps existed. Finally, after Pearl Harbor, in 1941, Hitler declared war on the United States. In 1942 the Wannsee Conference approved plans for the Final Solution, but the mass killings had been going on for years.
What is stunning is that, owing to Germany's massive militarization, it became an almost unstoppable threat to the world — a lesson that should not be lost on us today. Though it had been brewing for a long time, in an 8 year period, from 1933 to 1941, one of the most "civilized" nations on earth became a nation of war criminals and mass murderers.
This is not very scholarly but my wife and I just returned from visit to Nuremberg and the Nazi war trials museum there. There are too many parallels in the evidence:
ReplyDeleteHitlers narcissism, Nationalism, white supremacist views, megalomania, love of massive ralleys to feed ego and solidify base support. Scapegoating minority to blame economic woes and gain power. Special Deportation force. opposition to free press. Divisive Hate speech. Centralizing power with executive orders and cabinet role re-definitions and selections. General population offered weak resistance.
ReplyDeleteThank you. That is very helpful. I am especially interested in the early years, well before the death camps and such. What frightens me is how much this is starting to look like that.
I don't see the analogy. Trump is a vile human being and a bad president, but what's happening in the U.S. today has little to do with Germany in 1933.
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to bet money that Trump will be defeated in next year's presidential election and after some whining on his part about electoral fraud and maybe demanding a pardon for his crimes from the new administration, he will leave the presidency without a shot being fired and still less without the necessity of a huge world war to defeat him.
and if he wins?
ReplyDeleteTo be sure, the Nazis are a terrible reminder of just how a society can so quickly turn to barbarism. But it seems to me it's necessary to remind ourselves of the very significant differences between German circumstances in the 1920 and 1930s--I'm thinking of their political history, both domestic and international, of their economic circumstances, etc.--and the US today. I can't imagine that cherry picking from Germany's past can tell us very much about Germany then or about the US today.
ReplyDeletePaul, I know you are an atheist but we will have to pray for a Saul of Tarsus experience
ReplyDeleteCant lose our sense of humor on this.
Nazi Germany had high unemployment and looking for people to blame. Same as Battle ground state situation.
ReplyDeleteIf Trump wins, you'll have another 4 years of disastrous government.
ReplyDeleteHow disastrous it is depends on the outcomes of next year's congressional elections of course. The fact that we can even speculate on how the congressional elections will turn out indicates that we're not in a Nazi Germany type scenario. You can check out when the opposition was banned from the Reichstag, but I'm fairly sure that over two and a half years after Hitler took power, there were no opposition parties left in Germany. There were SS men ruling the streets (the SA had already been purged, I believe) with total support of the government. I doubt that Hitler would have made a speech like the one Trump made the other day condemning white supremacy: Trump's speech probably was sheer hypocrisy, but the fact that he made it is telling. The media still functions and much of the mainstream media is anti-Trump, while in Germany in 1935 I doubt that any anti-Hitler media still functioned. The day when Trump's SS troops march into the New York Times, beat a few journalists to death and throw the rest of them in jail I'll start to believe in your analogy.
Why all this focus on Trump? It's the modern Republican party itself that's at issue. Who, really, couldn't see that such as Trump would become the very flower of its latencies?
ReplyDeletehave you seen this clip?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cbsnews.com/video/11-year-old-girl-tearfully-pleads-for-dads-release-after-massive-ice-raid/
IANASOTENP*, but the request reminds me of Klaus Theweleit's Male Fantasies. It's a dense quasi-psychoanalysis and '70s-style cultural criticism, more so than history, but the eminently legible Barbara Ehrenreich wrote the foreword to the 1985 translation of the 1977 publication. Therein I see a reference to "Robert Waite['s]classical history of the Freikorps," which is, I assume, Vanguard of Nazism: The Free Corps Movement in Post-War Germany, 1918-1923 (Harvard UP, 1952).
ReplyDeleteHere's a taste: https://monoskop.org/images/5/54/Theweleit_Klaus_Male_Fantasies_Vol_1_Women_Floods_Bodies_History.pdf
*I am not a scholar of the early Nazi period.
By the way, Waite also published a book in 1977, dubbed The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler (Basic Books, 1977).
ReplyDeleteCorey Robin on the Trump-Hitler analogy.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/jan/13/american-democracy-peril-trump-power
True, Trump is not about to institute a thousand year Reich, but he does damage in other ways, perhaps worse, that's open to debate.
ReplyDeleteIf it happens in America it will just by the fact our history and society differs, authoritarianism will look different.
Trump is a better tweeter than Hitler and never served in the military and is more balanced but less a genius
See books by James Q. Whitman... Hitler's American Model and Carroll P. "Pete" Kakel III...The American West and the German East: A comparative and Interpretive Perspective.
ReplyDeleteWhile we may debate about the causes of Nazism or its similarities to today, no one can dispute how rapidly things went from bad to worse in Germany and the rest of the world.
ReplyDeleteThe beginnings of the Hitlerjugend were established in the late 20's — just as the Tea Party set the stage for Trump more than a dozen years ago. Until the early 30's the Nazi party grew until, in 1932, its support suddenly doubled from about 18.3% to 37.4% of the vote. This brought Hitler to power and in 1933 he became Kanzler. That same year Dachau was constructed, although it was originally used for political dissidents.
1933 was a particularly ominous year. As Kanzler Hitler declared that German foreign policy demanded the expansion of its territory. Germany First. The Reichstag fire and the "Enabling Act" consolidated Hitler's power and soon Congress (sorry, I meant the Reichstag) ceased to have any real political power. Political parties other than the Nazi party were banned, trade unions were banned, and the first book burnings occurred that year. Echoing themes we see today, Germany withdrew from the League of Nations.
Within short order Austrian criminals were pardoned en-masse, the military was enlarged, and by 1935 the first Race Laws were on the books. In 1938 mobs organized by the Nazis carried out Kristallnacht and German Jews were actually charged with the offense.
Despite the human rights abuses that had been occurring for over a decade (1929-1939), it was only when Germany invaded Poland that Britain and France declared war on Germany. In 1940 Denmark and Norway were occupied by Nazi Germany, followed by the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France. Germany developed plans for blitz bombing Britain. In 1941 Yugoslavia and Greece were occupied. Germany advanced on Stalingrad. Nazi Einsatzgruppen were already coordinating the wholesale slaughter of Jews in towns and cities where no concentration camps existed. Finally, after Pearl Harbor, in 1941, Hitler declared war on the United States. In 1942 the Wannsee Conference approved plans for the Final Solution, but the mass killings had been going on for years.
What is stunning is that, owing to Germany's massive militarization, it became an almost unstoppable threat to the world — a lesson that should not be lost on us today. Though it had been brewing for a long time, in an 8 year period, from 1933 to 1941, one of the most "civilized" nations on earth became a nation of war criminals and mass murderers.